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size really does matter
I'm working with the owners of my property on what kind of containment system to buy or make, but we're stuck because I don't know what size to aim for.
I was able to collect at least 60 gallons over our last 2 rain days, and this was my first attempt - i was limited in the number of containers. I filled every bucket i could until it flowed over, and could have filled more. I know future harvestings will bring much more, but I don't know how much more.
I'm hoping to go from rain to rain using only harvested water for the garden, but I don't know how much my garden will need. So I want to plan for water storage, but I don't know what's reasonable. 100 gallons? 300? 500? I should note that there's a big business with canted driveway roofs next door that I will be harvesting from, hopefully this winter, so the gallons will easily top 100, if not much more.
1. how much water do you harvest?
2. How do you store it?
3. where do you use it?
4. how much water does your garden use?
5. does your r'water harvest supply your garden or do you supplement?
6. How big is your cistern? Are you able to fill it?
I'm tempted to try out a couple different styles just to see what works.
Also, one design I'm considering is a submerged tub with a solar pump used to get the water from A to B. It's got a lot of advantages to it - I just haven't heard of anyone doing it before. That's not going to stop me, I was just wondering if y'all have tried it or seen it somewhere.
I was able to collect at least 60 gallons over our last 2 rain days, and this was my first attempt - i was limited in the number of containers. I filled every bucket i could until it flowed over, and could have filled more. I know future harvestings will bring much more, but I don't know how much more.
I'm hoping to go from rain to rain using only harvested water for the garden, but I don't know how much my garden will need. So I want to plan for water storage, but I don't know what's reasonable. 100 gallons? 300? 500? I should note that there's a big business with canted driveway roofs next door that I will be harvesting from, hopefully this winter, so the gallons will easily top 100, if not much more.
1. how much water do you harvest?
2. How do you store it?
3. where do you use it?
4. how much water does your garden use?
5. does your r'water harvest supply your garden or do you supplement?
6. How big is your cistern? Are you able to fill it?
I'm tempted to try out a couple different styles just to see what works.
Also, one design I'm considering is a submerged tub with a solar pump used to get the water from A to B. It's got a lot of advantages to it - I just haven't heard of anyone doing it before. That's not going to stop me, I was just wondering if y'all have tried it or seen it somewhere.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer on -
Hi Tenacity:
It's great to see everyone so excited about rainwater - especially after the couple of good rains that we've had!
I want to encourage everyone on this list to check out Brad Lancaster's site at http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/
I'd also encourage everyone to buy and read his books. The first is an introduction to rain and greywater harvesting. The second concerns storing water directly in the earth. After years and years of study and experimentation, Brad essentially says that although containers (barrels, cisterns, tanks) have a place, the best place to store rainwater is in the soil itself for a whole host of reasons and should be everyone's first step to store water. Only after you've mastered harvesting water in the soil should you move on to containers. The exception to this might be if you were living exclusively off your rainwater budget such as in a rural, off-grid location, or, as in Brad's case, doing it as research. Even after all Brad's experience - he hasn't quite managed to live within Tucson's water budget of 13" a year - but he comes darn close.
Part of storing water in the soil is building the soil inself with compost, micro-herds, etc. It also includes building a system of berms and swales, either on contour, or as is the case on most urban lots, as a path system with sunken in beds.
I know you're an affirmed freegan, but spend the $32 on Brad's first book. I can guarantee you that you will save money in the long term. Even a nice recycled food grade barrel is between $15-30. By the time you get the parts on it to make it a rainbarrel, you've spent more than the book cost you.
So what can you do RIGHT NOW?
--go outside during and after a rain and watch your water flows onto and off of your property. Look for high and low spots.
--use some of the dirt from high spots to berm around the edges of your property - the goal being that no rain that falls or flows onto your property should be allowed to escape.
--keep adding organic matter to your soils - I think you're doing a pretty good job of this! If there are bare patches of soil, get some more woodchips in and spread them around.
--make some aerobically active compost tea (see the PDF of Don's bermuda grass class for recipes or search the internet - the supplies are easy to come by FREE or cheap) The microorganisms in the tea help your soil hold more water. I can attest to this as my property was a mud pit after even a modest rain for the first 7 yrs I lived on this property. Then I heard about aerobically active compost tea and started applying it. Now even in a 2" rain I have no runoff and hardly even any standing water anywhere - it goes into the soil and stays there - stored for when the plants next need it. I even get all the runoff from my neighbors carport and still it all sinks in. This is a HUGE! And I'll tell you right now, it took me over a year of observing rain patterns to "get" it. I'm still fine tuning it all and will be for a long time.
If you're into permaculture, you have to get used to the idea that OBSERVATION is the key principle to any type of site analysis and design that you come up with. This is why it's so critical to have a simple drawing or google map image of your property. Draw your sun shadows at the equinoxes and solstices, draw your water flows on and off the property, draw the wind direction at various times of the year (which way do our prevailing winds come from? which way do the monsoons typically come from? is phoenix a good city for wind-generated energy?), where are the hottest, coldest, wettest and driest parts of your property? Are they the same all year long? How can you use these microclimates to your advantage?
I know this is probably not the answer you wanted. I still say get Brads book - he tells you how to calculate all sorts of things such as how much water you can expect to harvest from your roof in a typical 1" rain event. How much water various types of plants need during the year (varies by month, type of tree, size, etc). All the calculations are in his book and many are on his website. If you could digest all the info on his website alone, you would be way, way, way ahead in the water harvesting game.
Also see the video "Greening the desert" on the Video tab of this site (page 3). Very interesting - and a compelling permaculture arguement for harvesting and holding water directly in the soil.
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Permalink Reply by tenacity on -
1. Thank you so much for the thoughtful, informative reply - and thanks for kicking ass on this site. I can tell from the traffic that your workload is multiplying - and I want you to know I appreciate your hard work.
2. Ok, I get paid on Fri, I'll break down and buy the book. Research - knowledge - is one thing worth money. Besides I just Freegan'd three brand new bookcases, so I might as well celebrate with something new to put in them. :D
3. I'd glanced at the site before, but not in depth - I spent abit more time on it and am amazed at how thorough it is - the calculations alone blew me away.
4. But wait! When it rains the water sinks in - and then goes away! It sinks in and dries out! How can sending water into my soil keep the soil moist 3 months later? If that worked then wouldn't we all have nice wet soil all the time? Soil dries out - are you saying sending rainwater to the soil w/ living soil will stay moist?! Would I be able to just plant things and have them live- put my melons in moist soil (post-monsoon) in fall and have the soil stay moist until the winter rains?! That sounds impossible! Is that what you mean? Are you serious?
5. Microclimates - no kidding. I have spaces on my property only yards apart with different soil, water retention, shade, and temperature. I'm only beginning to learn them - they're like people, dozens of totally different people.
6.Google Earth 4.3 has a nice feature calles Sky where you can pinpoint a spot, then turn on Sky and see dawn to night light move over your location - but i don't know whether it accounts for trees - it would be limited by the age of the satellite images.
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Permalink Reply by Lindy Ross Barnes on -
Hi Tenacity - I'm going to echo Jen's and Don's posts here. OBSERVATION! Do get Brad's books -at least the first one. When I took the PDC class (Permaculture Design Certificate class) from Jan - Apr 2007 I had been involved in sustainability for many years and just assumed I was ready for the class. WRONG! I wasn't - I was lost. It has been about 1 1/4 years since I finished the class and I am now ready to take more classes and learn more. I have spent these past 16 months finding myself just standing outside looking at stuff. I think about the time of year, where the sun is, which direction is the rain and/or wind coming from, where is the water puddling and where is it running off, where should I be building more swales, where should I build more berms, where should I plant more trees/bushes/etc., what do I see, what do I feel, what am I thinking about all this? I try to come back in and journal all of the information I gather from being outside. Don't just write about it - draw pictures and take pictures and put them in the journal. I take long walks in my neighborhood everyday and pay attention to what is going on all around me. I add this to my journal as well. I'm not always real good about doing this - sometimes I forget to think :) and sometimes I don't get the journaling done. In spite of these screw-ups I have learned a remarkable amount from just standing around OBSERVING! :-D
From reading your posts you sound to me like someone who is passionate about learning all you can and you have the energy to do it all. I have read horror stories of people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to get their yards into a sustainable mode but it does not have to be expensive if you live your life recycling, reusing, scrounging, foraging,begging, harvesting, etc. I have a friend in CO who regularly goes dumpster diving and comes home with the most remarkable stuff - she has a boneyard full of stuff for the price of gas (yikes!) and her time. You are definitely on the right track. If you can attend any of the classes on Sat. mornings at the downtown market you will have greatly increased your learning.
Oh, and BTW - that water that sinks in and dries up quickly probably/possibly means you don't have enough mulch (ground cover). Mulch, mulch, mulch and when you think you can't mulch anymore do it again. If you have to raid your neighbors yards to get more mulch - do it. Just make sure any weeds you might use are DEAD - you don't want viable weed seeds having a go at your yard. When your soil has turned into a sponge it will soak up the water and retain it as well for quite a long time. This is an effort that takes a very long time but the pay off is enormous.
Oh - and one more thing - I have gotten a huge load of free (FREE) tree chips delivered to my school for my students' garden for free. I just called APS and they delivered. NO CHARGE at all! You might try calling your electric company and see if they will deliver to your house.
The very best of luck (luck = hard work:)
Lindy
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Permalink Reply by Don Titmus on -
Excellent reply Jen.
I cant say this enouth Store rainwater in the soil first, then in other containers and then passivily first and active last. (re solar pumps).
so get out there (after a rain) and work the soil...Raised paths / sunken beds, swales, cresents, and pits all covered with tree chips (mulch).
Cisterns and other containers are to have water during the dry periods. Reality is Phoenix really does not have enouth rain water to supply a regular veggie garden that would be big enouth for a family need.
BUT that does not mean you dont try I DO.....
Don
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